Rebuttal on the Handout
'Pit Bull Terriers and Other Bully Breeds' Trish King, Behavior & Training Dept. Marin Humane Society
[This handout includes vague language and sweeping generalizations regarding canine behaviors that may or may not be attributed to any specific breed and that are more likely due to a lack of breed specific knowledge. Our rebuttal comments are in ORANGE and inserted in brackets [ ] where appropriate.
First it should be well-established at the onset of our rebuttal that “pit bull” refers to a type of dog, not a breed. It actually encompasses several breeds and anything that has a certain look regardless of the actual lineage. The actual purebred names are the American Pit Bull Terrier (registered by the UKC and ADBA) and the American Staffordshire Terrier (registered by the AKC)]
There is a lot of prejudice - even hysteria - in the U.S. right now with regard to Pit Bull Terriers and other dogs like them. Our shelters - especially in urban areas - are filled with pit bulls and pit mixes. Very few of them are adoptable, and even fewer are actually adopted. Those that are adopted are often the objects of fear and distrust. [In my experience – from a rural perspective, not urban, far more pit bulls are adoptable than not. A great many pit bulls are social, gregarious and friendly but the lack of space in rescue organizations coupled with limited space and no-adopt policies in high kill shelters allow for far less to be saved than could be in a different world. ]
There are several reasons for this, but the reasons are all controversial, and your belief depends a great deal on your view about behavior - whether it's caused by nature or nurture, and whether one can modify behavior that has already been in place through late adolescence or social maturity (between 1.5-2 years). [I hedge my bets with nature.
This breed is overwhelmingly a resilient breed that can withstand the worst treatment and still come out a people loving fantastic companion dog. When you start talking about pit mixes - the waters can become very cloudy because the dog in question will have the traits of more than one breed and the mixes of these traits can have an undesirable outcome.
When discussing temperament testing results with regards to the American Pit Bull Terrier and the American Staffordshire Terrier, these breeds consistently seem to score higher than other “family friendly” breeds such as the cocker spaniel and Labrador retriever. For more information visit the American Temperament Test Society - www.atts.org]
Many bully-type terriers were originally bred to fight other dogs, to bait bulls, or for other "blood" sports. [Many of our canine companions were originally bred for purposes other than strictly “as a family pet”. All dog breeds were created with a specific purpose in mind and many of popular and “non bully” breeds have a bloody history including hound dogs.] Some breeders have been assiduous in breeding out the tendencies for aggression, but others actually breed for it - and the best way to get an aggressive dog is to breed two aggressive dogs to each other. The reasons for breeding aggression are varied - some people want their dogs to fight other dogs, some to guard their property, and some seem to want the "aura" of owning an aggressive dog. [This is where the widespread lack of understanding of the breed has become a serious handicap to all involved. The American Pit Bull Terrier was never meant to be a guard dog nor a dog that is aggressive to people for any reason. In fact it is quite the opposite. Pit bulls are often targets of theft because, if correct in temperament, they are incredibly people friendly and trusting of humans. Thanks lack of breed knowledge, the incorrect impression of the pit bull as a guard dog continues to be maliciously spread, to the detriment of the breed. The true APBT is a very people soft, gregarious, easy to train dog, with tendencies for intolerance towards other animals. This breed was never intended as a guard dog and is often stolen if left unattended.
The media has also played an important role in promoting the "ghetto dog" image of the American Pit Bull Terrier, which unfortunately may become a self fulfilling prophecy. More and more, people are believing the hype and aren’t taking the time to understand the true nature of this breed. This can take its toll and manifests in poor breeding practices and un-educated ownership. I feel as though this bears repeating – The American Pit Bull Terrier was never intended as a guard dog or a protective dog. Temperamentally sound American Pit Bull Terriers do not excel in this capacity.]
Dogs bred as pets for several generations tend to lose the behavior patterns that are the most problematic. Unfortunately, they are still feared because of their looks, and because many - if not most - bully dogs still retain some of their undesirable behavior patterns. [Each generation it seems has the bad dog du jour with a junkyard image, this generation is no different. Most people can remember the hysteria surrounding the German Shepherds and the Dobermans in the 70s and 80s, now the dog du jour is the “Pit Bull”]
Bully breeds have several desirable characteristics that build breed loyalty in their owners or guardians, such as:
extreme loyalty
affection to their owners
ease of training
[Also, don't forget: gregarious, people friendly, outgoing and social, athletic. A pit bull with a correct temperament enjoys meeting people and making new friends and bonds easily with its owners.]
Undesirable and/or anti-social behavior patterns include:
The tendency to chase things that move (animals, people, etc) [All dogs are hunters and predators and most will chase things that move quickly and/or erratically, even a Labrador or other popularly viewed “family friendly” dogs. Yes, Pit Bulls can have a high prey drive, however, there is a big difference in aggression towards animals and aggression directed towards people. These behaviors are separate and distinct and one does NOT predispose another].
The ability and tendency to bite and hold on – [This is a terrier behavior, jack russels, rat terriers, west highland white, cairn, etc, etc. The behavior is a terrier tendency and not reserved for “pit bulls” alone. ]
The tendency to try and dominate other animals or people by body slamming, mounting and otherwise physically controlling them. [Most performance type breeds require a good amount of training and socialization to be happy, including many shepherd types, border collies and other working dogs. Likewise, pit bulls need a fair amount of physical exercise and can become unruly if not provided with an outlet for their energy. However, though pit bulls can be pushy with other animals, they have been bred to be people soft! This breed is first and foremost a people soft breed – a temperamentally sound APBT will not try to dominate his handlers. ]
Uncontrollable arousal or excitement [“Uncontrollable” is a very deceptive description. We are talking about a performance breed that requires training and exercise just as many other performance breeds require training and exercise. Pit bulls do not have a tendency to re-direct aggression onto their human handlers.]
The first two undesirable characteristics can be classified as "predatory." All dogs have some of this - some breeds more than others. But, in most breeds and breed types, the behaviors are inhibited. For instance, many dogs will chase runners or bicyclists, but they are unlikely to do anything if they catch up - and are easily trained out of the behavior. Truly predatory dogs go through a fairly set series of behaviors that can end up in a serious bite or worse. These dogs are not angry or vicious. Instead, they are obeying an instinct that was essential for hunting [The description of “truly predatory” may be accurate, but it is NOT applicable to pit bulls. More primitive breeds would be predisposed to such predatory behavior but not temperamentally sound pit bulls]. Thus, they are not likely to give any warning and the chase can be amazingly fast. Sometimes they stalk before they chase; other times they don't [stalking before chasing is a herding dog trait: pit bulls are not herding dogs.]. A dog that bites out of fear or anger will virtually always warn its victim - it normally has no desire to bite, it just wants to be left alone [Such behavior is true of ANY dog that is in fear or in pain. It is actually called fear aggression and is undesirable and will render a dog, ANY DOG, un-adoptable].
Predatory attacks are very common in the bully breeds - predation is the main drive used in dog fighting, and it can be lethal. [Which breeds are being included in the bully breed category for this handout? Is this a general classificiation used by the uneducated – anything with a short coat and bulky body with a block head is a “bully breed”? Let be specifically clear about what exactly we are discussing. Some popular guarding breeds or some of the rare mastiffs have been included mistakenly in this category. Pit bulls (specifically the American Pit Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier) can be prey driven towards small animals and aggressive towards other dogs. At the same time this willingness to take on a challenge by another animal has been cultivated through breeding; these dogs have been bred to be easy to train, easy to handle and very people soft. ]
The third undesirable characteristic of these breeds is "dominating" or "bully" behavior. This stems from confidence. Oftentimes, confident puppies will bully their siblings, and may take away resources (food or toys). They will do the same to members of their own human families [this has not been my experience in the 10 years I have been involved with the breed]. And, if they're successful when they're puppies, they tend to repeat the behaviors when they are grown. [Resource guarding from people is thankfully NOT a typical bully breed behavior. It is a behavior that would/should exclude a dog from a breeding or rescue program. In the 10 years I have been involved with rescue, I have euthanized ONE purebred American Pit Bull Terrier for resource guarding behavior. If you interview others involved with purebred APBT rescue, you will find that resource guarding is not that common of an occurrence.]
The fourth undesirable characteristic - arousal or excitement - is actually the most problematic. Many bully dogs cannot seem to calm themselves down once they get excited. And once they get excited all their behaviors are exacerbated. Thus, if a dog is over-confident and has a tendency to body slam or mount, he or she will really crash into the other dog or person when he's aroused, sometimes inadvertently causing injury. [It isn't clear here if this is an aggression danger or a hyper dog running around and accidentally knocking someone down? or crashing into things and other dogs in a hyper play situation?] He may begin to play-bite, and then bite harder and harder and harder. When you try to stop the behavior, the dog often becomes even more "aggressive." In this way, play can turn into aggression fairly quickly. Research on the brain [whose brain? Dogs, humans or chimps?] has shown that excited play has exactly the same chemistry as extreme anger. [citations? - if heavy word like "research" are used please include references to the proper studies and science documentation] This allows a play behavior to switch quickly into aggression. And, once the dog has become aggressive a few times, the switch is much easier. [the author seems eager to translate “reseach” into “causation” or fact. Excited play may mimic brain chemistry but it does not mean that play causes anger]
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Our test includes scenarios that allow each of these behaviors to be manifested if they are there. We do not just watch the animals, nor do we try to make them aggressive. What we do is try to anticipate and replicate behavior that occurs in a normal home.
We observe the dog for a substantial amount of time to see whether he is attentive or affectionate toward us. We then show the dog affection (petting), to see if he comes back for more. We then do something the dog is not likely to like but that will not hurt (examining the teeth and hugging). We give the dog objects or food and then ask for it back, or we drop something and then attempt to take it. And we play - we see if the dog retrieves and if he gives up play objects readily when he's excited. We also run around, much as a child would, to see if the dog chases and what he does when he catches up. We then wait to see how long it takes for the dog to cam down, to relax. Lastly, we introduce the dog to one or two other dogs, to see whether he is social to them.
We try to see the whole dog, as much as possible, for the safety and well being of our clients. We do not expect perfection, and will "grade" a dog for different levels of potential owners. [In other words, they do not expect their clients to have any breed specific knowledge. Purebreds were bred with specific goals in mind and understanding how those traits are expressed in the dog you own is crucial to a happy dog/owner relationship, regardless of the breed. This knowledge also impacts methods of training that may be better suited for different breeds]. There are some behaviors that are unacceptable - mostly aggression. If the dog is aggressive towards people in any way, he is not recommended for adoption. In addition, dog to dog aggression is a big mark against the dog as - especially in this country - people want their dogs to lay well with others. [There are many breeds to that do not do well in a "dog park" setting and require more responsibility and vigilance when it comes to interactions with other animals. Unfortunately, dog owners have become selfish and lazy, wanting to satisfy their own desires of having their dog “play” with others while feeling like they are exercising or interacting with their dog. To own a purebred dog, some intelligence regarding dog behaviors and specific breed characteristics is important. Pit bulls are the most popular dog in the United States as well as the most feared and the most legislated against. They are sadly the most misunderstood and until people take time to understand the REAL American Pit Bull Terrier, ignorance will abound with unfortunate consequences.]
Pit bulls and other bully breeds fail most often in the areas of arousal and dog-to-dog aggression. [This is also where breed understanding plays a crucial role in the success of a dog in society. Many breeds are not successful with dog to dog interactions. People who are looking for a generic dog and who will expect nothing from their dog, plan to learn nothing about dog behavior or dog training, and plan to take their dog to the dog park and stand around with a bunch of other people with generic dogs and no behavior knowledge, should stay away from the American Pit Bull Terrier. The American Pit Bull Terrier is a dog that requires more from its owner, it requires an owner to understand the breed. The rewards from the understanding will be tenfold.]
Each and every dog is tested on his own merits. We have and do put pit bulls up for adoption, after a knowledgeable person has fostered him or her for three weeks. [this is not adequate time to get to know a dog, two months is the average requirement (in a foster home) for really truly getting to know a dog and successfully evaluating a dog's personality and adoptability]. We are cognizant of the power of this type of dog - plus many other big dogs - and would rather err on the side of caution than allow a possibly dangers dog into our neighborhoods.
Trish King
Director, Behavior & Training Dept. Marin Humane Society
[Amy Hendrickson
Annabelle’s Second Chance Pit Bull Rescue
www.ascpbr.com]
For other rebuttals on this handout, and breed information please see
http://blog.myspace.com/realpitbull
www.pbrc.net
www.badrap.org
http://badrap-blog.blogspot.com/2007/02/speaking-for-our-dogs.html
http://www.badrap.org/rescue/mhs_response.cfm
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Tuesday, February 27, 2007
REBUTTAL: 'Pit Bull Terriers and Other Bully Breeds' Trish King, Behavior & Training Dept. Marin Humane Society
More Rebuttal on the Handout:
“Pit bull” is not only a generic term, it is an incorrect term period. The term the real “dog men” (what dog fighters consider themselves to be) use is “pit dog,” and most breeds we are familiar with have been bred for aggressive purposes. For fear of conjuring up demons to malign other breeds, I will not name any specifically, but some of them have been bred to take down MUCH bigger and MUCH stronger prey than other dogs!
I also take umbrage at the following rebuttal comment, “First it should be well-established at the onset of our rebuttal that “pit bull” refers to a type of dog, not a breed. It actually encompasses several breeds and anything that has a certain look regardless of the actual lineage. The actual purebred names are the American Pit Bull Terrier (registered by the UKC and ADBA) and the American Staffordshire Terrier (registered by the AKC)]” You have stated this incorrectly. You should have said that several breeds have been used as pit dogs; however, only three of those breeds are commonly and INACCURATELY grouped with PIT DOGS in the public mind. The public will never get it If we, who love the dogs, cannot express this distinction. If a dog has not been used for dog fighting purposes – in the pit – it is not a “pit dog.”
So-called pit bulls are just dogs, no more and no less. Technically, they should be made available for adoption just like any other dog; however, until those of us who love them manage to educate enough people that the hype disappears, restricting adoptions is probably a good thing for us and for our beloved breed even if it means that many will die.
In case some of you have not personally witnessed the horrors that happen to your breed in some people’s hands, let it suffice to say that rather than have one of my beloved pets fall into such monsters’ hands, I would much prefer that my dog be humanely euthanized!
As for the ol’nature or nurture debate, in reality they may be so intertwined that they are inseparable. As scientists learn more about genetics, they are finding out that even if there is a gene for a particular trait, that the gene may never to “turned on” unless something in the environment triggers it. So, even if there were a gene for aggression, and there isn’t, it does not mean that it will ever be “activated.” This is, of course, a gross over-simplification, but works for illustrative purposes. As for when learning/socialization starts, that distinction is also becoming fuzzy – apparently dogs, like us, can continue to learn throughout life. Yes, socialization periods are important but they are NOT written in concrete.
Another quibble with the rebuttal: “This breed is overwhelmingly a resilient breed that can withstand the worst treatment and still come out a people loving fantastic companion dog. When you start talking about pit mixes - the waters can become very cloudy because the dog in question will have the traits of more than one breed and the mixes of these traits can have an undesirable outcome.” DOGS ARE DOGS! Write it on the chalkboard about a million times, repeat it until it becomes a mantra. DOGS ARE DOGS! Forget all the b.s. the pro-pitties use to justify the breed right along with all the b.s. that the anti-pits use to justify bans. DOGS ARE DOGS AND PITS ARE DOGS! The American Temperament Test Society (www.atts.org) has its place in the dog world and its reported results can be useful. I will not comment on such results further, short of torture, so don’t ask me to elaborate. I have my reasons for NOT doing so.
It is true that so-called “pit bulls” are not included in the lofty group of what are considered to be “world class” guard dogs. They are just not big enough.
There are breeders selecting for good temperaments, just like there are breeders selecting for bad temperaments. That being said, I would be willing to bet that not one breeder in 1000 (I will probably pay for that observation) knows enough about genetics to accomplish anything near to whatever their goal is for a particular trait. In addition, if a breeder breeds for a particular trait, say a lack of “aggression,” he can easily end up with a nervous, fearful dog that may be much more likely to bite than those with the traits he was trying to breed away from as most breeders simply do not know squat about genetics.
As for the remark, “The media has also played an important role in promoting the "ghetto dog" image of the American Pit Bull Terrier, which unfortunately may become a self fulfilling prophecy. More and more, people are believing the hype and aren’t taking the time to understand the true nature of this breed. This can take its toll and manifests in poor breeding practices and un-educated ownership. I feel as though this bears repeating – The American Pit Bull Terrier was never intended as a guard dog or a protective dog. Temperamentally sound American Pit Bull Terriers do not excel in this capacity.” A bunch of stupid, bragging, loud-mouth, macho owners created the dogs’ image problem and the media picked up on it and RAN with it. Stupid owners and bad breeders are stupid owners and bad breeders no matter what breed they have, although there may be an argument that our breed has MORE of them than most breeds.
“Dogs bred as pets for several generations tend to lose the behavior patterns that are the most problematic.” Dogs kept responsibly as pets tend not to HAVE the behavior problems that are most problematic in the first place. The farm fox experiments support what the “dog men” have always known, that one must breed game to game and, even then, the trait often does not manifest in offspring.
“Unfortunately, they are still feared because of their looks, and because many - if not most - bully dogs still retain some of their undesirable behavior patterns.” Well, the “look,” that is so desirable today, is not conducive to the necessary stamina that pit dogs need. And, are you sure you care about this breed? You keep talking about “their undesirable behavior patterns.” I have been around this breed for most of my life and, as someone who does behavior counseling and dog training, I have to say that they don’t seem to have any more problems than any other breed has.
“[Each generation it seems has the bad dog du jour with a junkyard image, this generation is no different. Most people can remember the hysteria surrounding the German Shepherds and the Dobermans in the 70s and 80s, now the dog du jour is the “Pit Bull”]” So true... And how many of you know that the BLOODHOUND was once the bad dog du jour?
I deleted all that good and bad behavior verbiage. Again, repeat after me, DOGS ARE DOGS. They are a product of nature and nurture, the sum of their existence. They are EXPERTS at interpreting what we want. They are manipulative. They are opportunistic. A dog in my house might be the perfect pet, move it to someone else’s house and it can turn into a Tasmanian Devil. And, vice versa, the perfect dog at someone else’s house, might turn into a monster in mine. Each dog (not breed) should be judged on its own merit - no more and no less. There is a greater range of behaviors within any one breed than across the breeds.
ARGH! No comment made about this breed makes me any angrier than: “People who are looking for a generic dog and who will expect nothing from their dog, plan to learn nothing about dog behavior or dog training, and plan to take their dog to the dog park and stand around with a bunch of other people with generic dogs and no behavior knowledge, should stay away from the American Pit Bull Terrier. The American Pit Bull Terrier is a dog that requires more from its owner, it requires an owner to understand the breed.” First of all, such people are not looking for a “generic dog” they are looking for a MAGIC, MIND READING, STUFFED ANIMAL! They shouldn’t own ANY dog, no matter what the breed or mix. Pits don’t need “special” owners anymore than any other dog does. All dogs deserve “special” owners who take dog ownership and the responsibility inherent in ownership VERY SERIOUSLY. They choose traits that they are looking for in a dog, find a responsible breeder who insures the pups emotional, mental and physical health, they obtain the dog a just the right time for it to be removed from its mother and litter mates, and they immediately launch into a long term socialization program and training using positive methods and they continue this process throughout the dog’s life. And, if there are any signs at all of the development of deviant behavior they IMMEDIATELY take their dog to the vet to determine if there is medical causation for the behavior change and, if not, they then go immediately to a knowledgeable behavior consultant and they follow his/her instructions to a fault.
One additional comment about adoptions, one is rarely, if ever, going to get a true picture of a dog’s behavior in a shelter situation. The dog may be entirely different in a home situation. And, even if a dog is perfect in the shelter or in a foster home, again, it can turn into a monster virtually overnight in the wrong (not necessarily abusive) hands.
Donna Malone
mypetpro.com
Purebred dogs are not just dogs. Purebred dogs have been selectively breed for specific tasks. A border collie is not the same dog as a bloodhound and is not the same as a german shepherd and is not the same as a rottweiler and is not the same as a weimeranner. Purebred dogs have been bred to have personalities and traits that are specific to that a particular breed - it's called the "breed standard". When you discuss mixed breeds, you have multiple breed traits mixing together.
Anyone who states a "dog is just a dog" is oversimplifying and ignoring the impact generations of selective breeding has on temperament. Pretending this isn't so won't help us in the fight against BSL. Only facts will help us win for our dogs.
I am a behaviorist at heart and I understand how stongly environment impacts behavior, but it is not the only determining factor, not by a long shot.
It is also fairly easy to pick out sound Pit Bulls (especially if you really understand the breed) in a shelter environment. I and many other rescue people do this on a regular basis. When the job is done right, there are no suprises once the dog goes to his/her forever home.
I have to agree, Pure bred dogs are NOT just dogs, as the poster named : “Annabelle's Second Chance Pit Bull Rescue stated”, "Purebred dogs have been bred to have personalities and traits that are specific to that a particular breed"
I have to also comment on what the poster named Donna Malone said when she stated” one is rarely, if ever, going to get a true picture of a dog’s behavior in a shelter situation."
I have to disagree with this comment, as I, one who has spent not only 20 years just "being around" them, I am with them 24/7 365 days a year, I have been to several shelters and can tell you from doing this for so long, and KNOWING what is a correct dog , I CAN size the dogs up a shelter situation , if I were to pick a dog who “ turned into a monster virtually overnight”, from a shelter setting or from a foster home, I would hope that someone would make me leave the rescue & Education field, as I being a PROFFESIONAL in this field with these particular dogs SHOULD be able to have the COMPELTE knowledge of these dogs and should NEVER have pulled a dog of that incorrect behavior in the first place. That should ALWAYS be able to be aeen in ANY situation.
I have NEVER been suprised by a dog we have pulled from any situation.
Annabelle's Second Chance Pit Bull Rescue said...
Purebred dogs are not just dogs. Purebred dogs have been selectively breed for specific tasks. A border collie is not the same dog as a bloodhound and is not the same as a german shepherd and is not the same as a rottweiler and is not the same as a weimeranner. Purebred dogs have been bred to have personalities and traits that are specific to that a particular breed - it's called the "breed standard". When you discuss mixed breeds, you have multiple breed traits mixing together.
RESPONSE:: Really? Pits aren’t just dogs? What are they? Aliens in a dog disguise? And, if you think they are different, please share how you think they are different from ALL other breeds/dogs? Sarcasm aside, you are aware that recent studies have show that all those purebred dogs are more closely related than anyone previously believed? That is not to say that they can’t be identified by breed now, because apparently they can (so much for that argument); however, polygenic traits, like aggression, are not black and white like single-gene traits, i.e., it either is or isn’t. Further, scientists are now finding that even single genes are affected by the environment, etc., turning alleles on or off. Aggression is POLYGENIC, i.e., multiple genes/multiple alleles, etc. My guess is some of those “breed traits” that you think are so sacrosanct are, in fact, single genes rather that polygenic; however, surprise me, find studies that show otherwise.
Wednesday, February 28, 2007 9:39:00 PM Mary Harwelik said... Anyone who states a "dog is just a dog" is oversimplifying and ignoring the impact generations of selective breeding has on temperament. Pretending this isn't so won't help us in the fight against BSL. Only facts will help us win for our dogs.
I am a behaviorist at heart and I understand how stongly environment impacts behavior, but it is not the only determining factor, not by a long shot.
It is also fairly easy to pick out sound Pit Bulls (especially if you really understand the breed) in a shelter environment. I and many other rescue people do this on a regular basis. When the job is done right, there are no suprises once the dog goes to his/her forever home.
RESPONSE: No, pretending won’t help, but neither will ignorance. I never said that selective breeding would not have an impact on temperament. Ever hear of the Farm Fox experiments? However, you, like respondent one, want to reduce genetics to 1 + 1 + 2 and ignore 1(a)(b(w) and 2(z)(y)(x)(o) and come up with 2 and you just can’t do that! Plus, you assume, erroneously, that this is an established breed like other breeds and that it has been bred to anywhere near the standard of most purebred dogs AND that each of the dogs in its lineage was game from a game-bred line. You do know enough about the breed to know this is not the case, right? Thus, I refer you back to the Farm Fox experiments again, i.e., how easily domestication was to achieve. Another note of possible interest is that pits manifest the very traits that go along with domestication in those studies, hmmmm... Gets confusing, huh? It's those darn polygenic traits and their freakin' alleles!
Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:25:00 AM L. Adams said... I have to agree, Pure bred dogs are NOT just dogs, as the poster named : “Annabelle's Second Chance Pit Bull Rescue stated”, "Purebred dogs have been bred to have personalities and traits that are specific to that a particular breed"
In response to L. Adams’ post: Being “with” a dog is definitely a plus but it does not make one an expert of that breed or of dog behavior even if you are with them 24/7/365. That just doesn’t do it. Do you follow-up on the dogs you pick? For how long - life? Same goes with the number of shelters you have been visiting, that does not make one an expert either. Who says you are a “PROFFESIONAL?” Have you been certified as such by the Courts? Or, are you a “self-styled?” You know, of course, that insurance companies have all but quit under-writing rescues (of any breed) because apparently no one else has your “gift,” although most of the insureds that caused this problem thought they did. If you are so “professional” that you can predict 100% of the time that which even veterinary behaviorist’s cannot predict, my hat goes off to you. When will your book/seminar tour to begin? I have never had an incident either; however, I am not so bold as to announce something to the world that, as someone knowledgeable about behavior, I know would make me look ignorant of the number of medical causes for aggression (with symptoms that may not manifest in the shelter) or, alternatively, of the fact that, say, the dog’s aggression may only be triggered by fat gnomes in flip-flops, sunglasses and Hawaiian shirts. Who knew? In fact, the assumed liability alone inherent in such a claim would keep me from uttering such words!
All breeds of dogs have specific traits that are specific to that particular breed. Is a border collie just a plain dog? If I want a dog to herd sheep - can I just go get a beagle from the pound since they are all just dogs??
"Plus, you assume, erroneously, that this is an established breed like other breeds and that it has been bred to anywhere near the standard of most purebred dogs AND that each of the dogs in its lineage was game from a game-bred line. "
Are you serious? You do not think the American Pit Bull Terrier is an established breed? Do you not realize the UKC was established for the EXPRESS purpose of registering and tracking fighting dogs known as the AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER? We're not talking about mixed breeds that people assume are "pit bulls" and the type - we are discussing the APBT which is one of the oldest breeds and has been true to form for a very long time.
http://www.workingpitbull.com/history.htm
Please pick up a book on the APBT and you can start with "The American Pit Bull Terrier" by Joseph Colby and end with "Colby's Book of the American Pit Bull Terrier" by Louis Colby and Diane Jessup
Annabelle's Second Chance Pit Bull Rescue said...
"Plus, you assume, erroneously, that this is an established breed like other breeds and that it has been bred to anywhere near the standard of most purebred dogs AND that each of the dogs in its lineage was game from a game-bred line. "
Are you serious? You do not think the American Pit Bull Terrier is an established breed? Do you not realize the UKC was established for the EXPRESS purpose of registering and tracking fighting dogs known as the AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER? We're not talking about mixed breeds that people assume are "pit bulls" and the type - we are discussing the APBT which is one of the oldest breeds and has been true to form for a very long time. http://www.workingpitbull.com/history.htm
Please pick up a book on the APBT and you can start with "The American Pit Bull Terrier" by Joseph Colby and end with "Colby's Book of the American Pit Bull Terrier" by Louis Colby and Diane Jessup
Saturday, March 03, 2007 6:22:00 PM
>>RESPONSE:
Yeah, yeah... been there, done all that. Read a book by Colby’s SON did ya? That’s impressive. Have the books, even have a copy of that once hard to obtain book that allegedly delineates the lineage of the old family reds from Ireland. Seen the alleged pics by various artists of the babes allegedly chasing wildlife and in battle, and, somewhere around here, so what? The problem is 99% of it is, at best, hype.
Jessup is a good egg but, well, some of her sources ain’t. Somewhere around here, I have the old home phone numbers of many of the old “famous” pit breeders, the ones you have only read about and that are now probably all dead, whose names you can also probably quote with equal ease. I have actually **spoken** to most of them - GASP! Yes, actually spoken to those now deified by those who are so impressed with the breed that they can’t believe they are mere dogs!
Most of the old pit men bred for money not quality as they got older in life because there were idiots who would buy anything with the name “pit bull” on it.
Yes, I know the UKC was established for that purpose, around 1898 if I remember right, only they did not call the dogs APBT’s at the time, they called them American Terriers. They did not change the breed name until much latter when they figured out that papers with American “Pit Bull” Terrier sold better (sound familiar? CHA-CHING) than those without it in them. They eventually even took out the quotes.
The UKC is gaining more and more respectability as a registry as time goes on, I applaud them for that. Historically, however, that was not always true, they were second for a reason, partly because they were really slow computerizing. Can you imagine cross-referencing all that info without a computer?
Yes, I know all the code phrases/words for fighting dogs, i.e. game bred, etc., but at one point I literally knew 1000's of breeders and, out of that, only a teeny, tiny, minuscule minority were actually game breeding dogs.
True to form? Are you kidding? They are rarely true to form. What you get in a litter is what you get in a litter with APBTs, not so with established breeds, which generally look like cookie cutter pups. BTW, I used to get cookie cutter pups way, way, way back when I was breeding the closest thing one could get to a pure Hemphill/Wilder old family dog at the time. (One of my pups was at a huge show in LA one year but wasn’t showing and all the judges came up to its owner fairly drooling at the mouth wanting to know where it came from. At least they recognized the real thing when they saw it.)
Look, even the breed standard has been changed to enhance the breeds marketability, even though it reduces the dogs’ fighting abilities. APBT range from 25 lbs to 125 lbs with as many appearance variables as most AKC GROUPS, maybe even more than one such group, has! Their ears can be long, short, prick, rose, etc., Their tails vary in length and set. Some are long and some are square. Their coats are of many colors and textures. There is NOTHING standard about them and, what there is, is not what it was and it is not for a reason. They are all pretty much scatter-bred now.
You might, if you look really, really, really, really, really hard manage to find a true game bred pit from a lines of game bred pits but, well, unless you managed to tap into the mainline for underground dog fights, i.e., as opposed to the gangsta style dog fights where they will fight any dog, anytime, to the death, sans any real rules, much less pedigrees or records of game breedings, it is going to take you years and thousands of dollars to do so. Saying a dog is game bred today is a joke, it was bad in the 60's and 70's and the problem is much, much worse today.
Donna<<
Anonymous said...
All breeds of dogs have specific traits that are specific to that particular breed. Is a border collie just a plain dog? If I want a dog to herd sheep - can I just go get a beagle from the pound since they are all just dogs??
Saturday, March 03, 2007 6:10:00 PM
RESPONSE: Jessup put herding titles on at least one of her pits. I had one that was a master herder (no title), as she so aptly demonstrated on more than one occasion. She even had what is commonly known as "THE EYE" in BC circles. Of course, those who really know, know that many of the early pits were used as herding dogs not just catch dogs.
Donna
some of the language and ignorance shown by the Marin Human Society in releasing this handout is astounding and concerns me deeply. An organization that is there to help the animals regardless of breed should be more educated and understanding of the american pit bull terrier. To say they must act in positive manner socially with other dogs to be adoptable is ridiculous. many dogs have a better outcome if they are in a one dog home. My two american pit bull terriers are not good with other animals though they are wonderful with humans. This does not make them undesirable human companions whatsoever. There are so many problems facing this breed as a whole but these problems do not stem from these animals being unsound, the problems stem from humans irresponsibility.
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